S1:E4 "Alive In Christ"

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:14] Speaker B: Howdy do da day. I'm gonna try to do a different intro every time. Welcome to the Gathering House Postscript podcast. My name is Brad Stewart. I'm with Joe Olinger and Phil Campbell, worship extraordinaire. Oh yeah. You like that? [00:00:34] Speaker C: I do. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Huh. So we are part of. We're kind of the leadership team or part of the leadership team over at the Gathering House Church in Royal Oak, Michigan. And if you're just joining us, one of the things that we are doing with this podcast is instead of streaming our sermons, we're roundtabling the. The discussion topics around the scriptures that we're preaching out of. So that's, that's kind of what we're doing here. So we're excited to have you. Thanks for, for tuning in. Listening. This is episode number four, which is awesome. We've made it four episodes so far, guys. Pretty good. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's awesome. [00:01:18] Speaker B: Awesome as always. We like to remind people because this is just getting going, so we don't have anything yet, but we do want to make sure that you guys know that there is always the opportunity for questions or comments. You can email those to info. TheGatheringHouse Church. We'd love to hear from you. And they can be related to what we're talking about. We love to. You know, we know that sometimes when we dive into Bible, some of the things that we try to clear up end up clear like mud. So if you have any questions of anything that we're talking about or anything unrelated, we'd love to. To take those on as well. And church. That's right. Info at the Gathering House at Church, which is an extension of our website. You can go to our church website, but there is a podcast tab on there and that is at www.thegatheringhouse church. So, you know, if you wanna. If you're looking for a church home, we would love to have you, but not if you already have a church home. We are not trying to shuffle sheep. Stay with your church family. I'm a firm believer in that. But if you are looking for a church family, we would love to. To be your church family. [00:02:39] Speaker C: We are not sheep nappers. [00:02:40] Speaker B: No, we are not sheep. [00:02:42] Speaker C: That's right. [00:02:44] Speaker B: I've never heard that ever before. Well, it's because we are going to coin that. [00:02:49] Speaker A: That's amazing. That's right. T shirt maybe. [00:02:53] Speaker B: You know how, you know how podcasts have like they're following or whatever. They all have names, you know what I mean? Like, the one that comes to mind is Nate Bargetzi because I. I think he's a super funny comedian. [00:03:08] Speaker C: It is funny. [00:03:09] Speaker B: His are folks. The. The folks. Because he's always like, oh, folks. So maybe, maybe our people can be called sheep nappers. So I don't know. [00:03:20] Speaker C: I'm not sure what to do with that. [00:03:21] Speaker B: I don't know. Maybe we don't want to be. [00:03:24] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. We're not dead. [00:03:27] Speaker B: I guess at some point we'll have to have a. Like some sort of contest or vote or something that's going to name. Name the. The little community here. So as it is right now when we're recording this, we are about, well, about five and a half hours away from Christmas Eve, guys. So. [00:03:52] Speaker A: Crazy, man. [00:03:53] Speaker C: It is. [00:03:53] Speaker A: What do you think it's so appropriate, too, for the topic today, being alive in crimes, right? [00:03:58] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. It's kind of cool. It is a great. [00:04:01] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, man, it's cool. [00:04:03] Speaker B: All these things pan out. That's why I have my festive, ugly sweater on. And of course, I'm rocking my lion's hat because as we recorded this, we are now 13 and 2. We got the D. Tigers, baby. I love the tigers, too. [00:04:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:17] Speaker B: But right now, the Lions are making a run at it. So wherever you're at in the country or the world, we are Lions fans, and we do believe that being a fan of the Lions is essential for salvation. Just kidding. [00:04:30] Speaker C: It's the sheep nappers that we are. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Yes. No, we're excited. You know, I'm. You'll find as we go here, if you don't know us, we like music, we like sports, we like science, we like a lot of things. So. But it's. We definitely like Reese. So it's good stuff coming into a good time of year. So, you know, Merry Christmas to you guys. Merry Christmas to everyone listening, and thanks for just being along on the journey with me. I appreciate all of you. So let's. I guess that's the housekeeping stuff as far as I can think of. Let's jump into it. We're jumping into Ephesians 2, starting off Ephesians 2, verses 1 to 16. And. And Joe, you really led the discussion around this at the church, and so I'd love for you to lead the conversation again today. [00:05:32] Speaker A: We'll get into it, man. I'm excited. [00:05:35] Speaker B: But we should probably start with prayer. I'll pray. Lord, thank you for tonight and thank you for the people who are part of our church family and the people who are just tuning in, Lord. Um, we just want to. We just want to get to know you more I just ask that you would get us out of the way or that you'd be the center of this conversation. We. We are not. We're not smart. We're not, you know, these brilliant minds that are going to revolutionize anything. Lord, we just want to exalt you and. And discuss the things of you. So I just pray that you'd be the center of this conversation. Be glorified, Lord. Teach us, even in real time. I know that we do a lot of prep work, Lord, but. But, Lord, you. Your. Your scriptures, they are living and breathing, and. And the way that your spirit interacts with us when we dive into him is supernatural. And it's not the. It's not about the men who wrote them, not about the ink on the page. It's about what happens when you minister to us, when we dive into him. And I just. I just pray that you would just continue to teach us, Lord. Don't let us say anything too stupid and get us out of the way, Lord. So we love you, we praise you and pray this in Jesus name. Amen. [00:07:00] Speaker C: Amen. [00:07:02] Speaker B: All right, let's jump into it, guys. [00:07:05] Speaker A: Yeah, man. Feeling you want to read us off that. That? [00:07:10] Speaker C: Yeah, this. [00:07:11] Speaker A: This is a huge amount of verses there. [00:07:13] Speaker C: It is a huge. So I'm, you know, just prepare yourselves. Okay, ready? This is Ephesians 2:1 through 16. It is made alive with Christ. Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many, many sins, you used to live in sin just like the rest of the world. Oh, boy. My thing just took off on me. You used to live in sin just like the rest of the world. Obeying the devil, the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the Spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature, we were subject to God's anger just like everyone else. But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. It is only by God's grace that you have been saved for the rest of us from the dead along with Christ, and seated us with him in the heavenly realms. Because we are united with Christ Jesus. So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness towards us as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ. God saved you by his grace when you believed. He saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for that. It is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done. Can't earn it, boys, so none of us can boast about it, for we are God's masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago. And this is oneness and peace in Christ. Don't forget that you Gentiles used to be outsiders. You were called uncircumcised heathens by the Jews who were proud of their circumcision, even though it only affected their bodies and not their hearts. In those days, you were living apart from Christ. You were excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel and you did not know the covenant promises God made to them. You lived in this world without God and without hope. But now you have been united with Christ Jesus. Once you were far away from God, but now you have been brought near to him through the blood of Christ. For Christ Himself has brought peace to us. He united Jews and Gentiles into one people when in his own body on the cross he broke down the wall of hostility that separates us. He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations. He made peace between Jews and Gentiles by creating in Himself one new people from the two groups together as one body. Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross. Our hostility toward each other was put to death. [00:10:19] Speaker A: You know, that's really, I mean, exactly where we're at right now. Man is. Is because Christ was born right, that, that he came to break this dividing wall of hostility, to make people who were dead in their sins and, and cause us to be alive. Man, I love that concept. You know, I, you know, I know kind of how I did it during the sermon, but I just. I wanted to kind of just touch on some things tonight and then just kind of look at the wording that Paul is using again. He's using kind of the same wording. He says, you. And then he goes back and says, we all were. And I think in a sense, it's almost like Paul was kind of being careful, but not too careful when he's presenting to the Gentiles like he's saying, okay, you were dead in your sins when you lived in. You know, you were. Let me go back there. You were dead in your sins. And the uncircumcision of the flesh in which you used to Live. When you followed the ways of the world and the ruler of the kingdom of the air, then he goes in and says, all of us lived among them too. Right. That Paul now is saying, not only did the Gentiles live in sin or were considered the dirty, but now he's saying, okay, you too, Jews. You know, you can't just sit around and point your finger at the Gentiles and say, you bunch of heathens, you, you, you, you're dirty in sin. But now Paul is. Is really showcasing this. This almost a new idea to many Jews that, hey, you too were in your sin. I don't care how closely you were following the law, you were still dead in your sin. Right. And it wasn't the law. And so the wording here, I think, is very important. You know, when Paul is. Is. Is looking at this, even presenting it, I think Paul is very careful with his wording, but it was in such a way that it was not only bringing light to the Gentiles, but it was also bringing light to the Jews as well. [00:12:27] Speaker B: You know, making ammunition. The first two things that stick out to me right at the beginning are like, you're talking about. I mean, first of all, he's acknowledging from both sides that Jews and Gentiles thought they were separate. And he's acknowledging that. But in the same side, he's saying. [00:12:55] Speaker A: We blew it too. [00:12:57] Speaker B: Everybody blew it. That's kind of the point of this, and I love that. He also kind of like we talked about in the last episode, when it comes to the idea of sin, he discusses sinful nature, but he also discusses that authority. You know, you're talking about where he's. He's talking about following the Prince of the power of the Air, the Spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. [00:13:20] Speaker A: We. [00:13:22] Speaker B: He, like, he's kind of addressing the, hey, you know, you Gentiles who serve this Master. Yeah, we all serve that Master outside of Christ. That's right. Every one of us was under the jurisdiction or principality of sin, which, which, you know, I, you guys know, is a. Is a hot topic for me and in how we view sin. And so I. Those two things right off the rip, Paul is. Is taken on and it's. It's heavy stuff. [00:13:55] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely, man. I mean, getting kind of back on that topic of. First of all, he's talking about, okay, this past of that you used to. Right, right. He's reminding them where they were at. He was reminding even other Jews where they were at. But you are there no Longer. And, you know, you were mentioning how you, you know, that the Spirit who is now at work, you know, in them when they were in disobedience, that he is now at work in people who are in disobedience. And I think it kind of gives us also a picture of, of, of ministry. Because I. When I look at that verse, I think about how. How the enemy is very much at work in the world right now, even when we minister the gospel. Right. I mean, I think about, you know, that when we're ministering to others, there's a lot that's happening in the spiritual realm. Because, I mean, we're looking at Ephesians, chapter six, you know, we're looking at that. This is a very spiritual warfare. We're coming against the kingdom of the air. We're coming against the things. And when we're ministering to others, first of all, I think it's so vital for us to remember where we were at, right? Remembering that we were dead in our sin. And when we come to the knowledge of the truth of Christ, now we are made alive in him. And I think what, what happens in that is that when we're constantly in that state of remembering, it helps us to deliver the message to those who are still in the world, who are still dead in their sin. Right? [00:15:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:41] Speaker A: I mean, I think about Elon. I touched on this. I think it was one of these sermons here. But I think about even the silversmith in Acts, chapter 19. I feel so sorry for Demetrius. Paul comes in, man. He's coming in with guns blazing and just sharing the gospel. And people are coming to the knowledge of the truth. So much so that they're throwing their idols away. They're burning on. They're taking all their, their sorcery scrolls and they're coming to the middle court and they're just burning it all. And so here's this Demetrius guy, he's a silversmith who's like, okay, we gotta do something here. Paul's bad for business, right? [00:16:26] Speaker B: So he gets. That's a real thing. [00:16:28] Speaker A: It is, absolutely. So, so he brings all these other trade people come, you know, that, that, that contribute to the building of the idols and stuff. And he goes, listen, you know, Paul's. This guy's coming in, people are turning away and they're, they're, they're following this guy. Now it's not only hurting our belief system, you know, with, with the idol worship that we have here, but, but now it's like it's hurting our business because now they're no longer coming and buying idols and stuff. And so, you know, and it's like this idea that when we preach the gospel to others, the enemy is very much at work in people's lives because people are so hungry for something and they're living their lives. And so a lot of times when, you know, you, you have this and you're presenting the gospel, people are like, I want to leave my lifestyle. You know, I grew up believing this, but now you're telling me you have to believe this. And so the enemy is very much at work in them. In fact, Paul goes on, I think it's in Second Corinthians, chapter four, when he said, you know, and even if our gospel is veiled, it's veiled to those who are perishing. The God of this age has blinded the mind of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of God. Right. And the glory of Christ. And so when we minister to others, you know, know, remembering how blind we were, remembering how when we lived in disobedience, how the enemy was working in our lives, how we were blinded to truth, that we didn't want to hear it, but it took the Holy Spirit to reveal that truth, to bring us to this place to come alive. You know what I'm saying? [00:18:13] Speaker C: Yeah. I think people are afraid to give up their lifestyle. You know, I mean, that's a big thing, right? [00:18:18] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. [00:18:18] Speaker C: You got to come as you are. And, you know, I, I don't. You know, people like, do I have to stop doing. You know, all you have to do is accept it and learn about it. And those things will either they'll fall off on their own if it's something that's a bad habit or. [00:18:34] Speaker B: Right. [00:18:34] Speaker C: A sinful nature, so to speak. [00:18:37] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that you're hitting some. There's a. There's a lot of really good stuff here already. One of the things, you know, you're talking about is remembering where we were and where. What Christ pulled us out of. [00:18:51] Speaker A: Yes. [00:18:51] Speaker B: And how important that is. And, and I think that that's important for a few reasons. Number one is, you know, we live in 21st century America. Sometimes the church can get more caught up in the idea of legislating morality than sharing the gospel. Right. It's easier to throw a dollar at something. It's easier to. To throw a vote at something. And we, we, you know, if it's the idea of judging someone as, you know, a believer to a non believer, because when it comes to judgment. I mean, we'll get into this at a later time too, but we're definitely called to judge the works of the believers, but we're not called to judge the hearts of the unbelievers. And so we're called to share the gospel, share the good news. We're called to be the hands and feet. If you're hungry, you should get a sandwich. If you're thirsty, you should get a drink. If you're, you don't have a roof over your head, you should, you should experience the hands and feet of Christ, you know, in the way that we interact with people. So that's, that's one thing. And sometimes I think that we put more focus on fighting things at a legislative kind of area than we do. [00:20:18] Speaker C: Keeping it simple, just being the hands. [00:20:21] Speaker B: And feet of Christ and letting people experience Christ through their interaction with us. The other thing is when you're talking about the idea of know we were once dead in our, in our sin. Unless you've experienced becoming that new creation. Right. That like, you know, we see in Second Corinthians 5, you know, therefore, if anyone is, is in Christ, he's a new creation. The old has passed away, behold, the new has come. Like, unless you've experienced that transformation, it's a completely foreign concept. And so we can't expect people who have not. People who are dead don't know they're dead. [00:21:03] Speaker C: Right, right. [00:21:03] Speaker B: You know. Right. And, and I, I think about that, that scripture that says like the dead know nothing. [00:21:10] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:10] Speaker B: I don't know. It's a little out of context for, for what it's talking. But I, I kind of think there is a parallel there definitely with the person who is not in Christ. You don't know what you don't know if you don't know. [00:21:24] Speaker C: Right. [00:21:25] Speaker B: Well, you know, I did not, I didn't know that I was dead in sin until the Holy Spirit illuminated to me. [00:21:32] Speaker C: That's right. [00:21:33] Speaker B: And showed me who he is. [00:21:34] Speaker C: Exactly right. [00:21:35] Speaker B: And transformed me. And so we have to remember dealing with, with people who, who aren't believers, who are, who are dead in, in sin, you know, like, that's a foreign concept. Yeah, absolutely. So I guess my question for you as I'm, I'm just going to throw this out there is. [00:21:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:54] Speaker B: How, what's, what do you think is the best way to even articulate that to an unbeliever? Because I, I find myself continually evolving in this. I, you and I, we come from similar. Well, all of us come from similar backgrounds. The Whole like, well, you just, we got to trick them into praying this prayer and filling out this card and, and not saying that God has never used that, because we have seen God use, for sure, the head bowed, you know, eyes closed prayer decision card. And I've seen God move people's lives through that. [00:22:31] Speaker C: Yes. [00:22:32] Speaker B: But also God's been showing me over the last few years of how, you know, I, I, I won't call him out personally, but there's someone who is in our church right now who, you know, he came in and I remember we were walking, our families were walking together to the ice cream store down the street from the church. And the first time that we were going for this walk, he just looked at me and he said, I hate Christians, I hate church, hate everything about this. And he was really being dragged there by his girlfriend at the time. And, and then to see him, you know, this year, we got to baptize him and to see that transformation that did not take place in one moment with one decision card, but over a period of time of meeting God continuously. So it's a mystery when that happens. [00:23:27] Speaker C: It is a mystery. It is a mystery. Jesus himself said that, when does somebody actually become a Christian? It's a mystery. [00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:37] Speaker C: Not to God, but. [00:23:38] Speaker B: So here we know what it's like to be once dead, right, in sin and now alive in Christ. How, how would we articulate if, you know, we're, we're on a podcast right now. How would you, how would you take that on? [00:23:54] Speaker A: You know, and I think you really hit it right on the head there with this individual, because it didn't. Sometimes it doesn't take an instance, sometimes it takes time. You know, it's a process sometimes. You know what I mean? It's, you know, Paul says, you know, you know, I planted some water, but God provides the increase. I think we have to have such a dependency on the Holy Spirit to reveal that to them, because I think that us trying to tell people that they're dead, bingo, you know, will absolutely drive them crazy, you know, And I think that, you know, it's really a total reliance on the Holy Spirit. But I think, you know, remembering, going back to remembering where we were, I think one of the most powerful things that we can do as ministers of the Gospel to expose this condition in people's hearts isn't to go and blast them, isn't to say that you are a dead, you're a, you know, lying, thieving, adulteress person. Because the reality is we all kind of know that Christ said You stand condemned already. Those who are in darkness stand condemned already. But those who come into the light are no longer condemned. You know, Christ didn't. You know, we. We always say, you know, no one was ever condemned to heaven, right? Everybody is loved through Christ in heaven, I think, taking the time and loving them, but also exposing our own need for Christ to them. And, and that's where our testimonies come in, right? I mean, it's saying, okay, this is where I was at. You know, they're not going to. They don't really care what happened to Paul in scripture. They don't care what happened to David. They don't care even necessarily what happened to Jesus at the time. They care about what took place in your life that created change. Where was that time in your life that you came to the conclusion that you yourself was dead and you are hopeless? Because the reality is, I believe that we all, even when we were born into this world and in our sins, we have a natural craving to come alive. But people who don't know what that means, it's like, you know, during the sermon, I had a stack of bricks up, right? And it was taught, you know, I was talking about how the enemy blinds the part of unbelievers. They have that hunger of what is on the other side of that wall, but they can't see what's on the other side of that wall. But when we present truth to them, then all of a sudden the Holy Spirit reveals to them what is on the other side of that wall. Then they put their hope in Christ, and then that barrier is broken. It was like, for instance, like, you know, I did a lot of mission trips to Mexico in the mafia prisons and stuff. And these men, I mean, I was sitting and I was talking to some of these. Just they were in there for some very, very, very horrific thing. A lot of them are in mafias, like mafia gangs and everything. And I was just simply presenting the gospel to them, and I was trying my best to relate to these guys. But, man, I mean, I. My testimony is nowhere near some of those guys stories, right? But. But it was like they were. They were saying, joe, it had to be a true encounter with Christ. You know, one of the guys, he. He actually, this is a crazy story. He. I was partnering with this ministry in Mexico and we would go into these areas. [00:27:22] Speaker C: Just. [00:27:23] Speaker A: I mean, this dude was just doing so much for the Lord, and we went to this mafia prison. And so this this guy, he was a chaplain, but he wasn't always a chaplain. He was in the mafia. And he was sharing his testimony, and he said the word got out that my friend, my pastor friend that was doing all this work was again, bad for business, kind of like Paul was. And a lot of people from the mafia and these gangs were accepting Christ. And what does that mean to them? It means that they're turning back on the lifestyle and they're. They're no longer doing the drug runs and they're no longer doing all this stuff. And so they actually hired him to take out my friend at one of his crusades. And so he went to one of my buddies events and he had the gun. He was ready, prepared. It was like a Monday morning for him. You know, it was like an everyday thing. And so my buddy just started to preach. Just. He said, I just feel like I need to preach the simplicity of the gospel. Jesus crucified. And as he was sharing and he shared his testimony, this man stands up and he goes to the altar and he falls on his face. He just starts saying, I need. I need Jesus in my life. This man that was hired, right? And so my buddy prayed with him. And then after, you know, they were giving him the microphone to share his testimony, and he looked at my buddy and he handed him the gun and said, I was hired to kill you tonight. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Wow. [00:28:48] Speaker A: But the Holy Spirit revealed that I had needed him, you know, and. And all of a sudden, it was like one of the big testimonies that they would share and they became best friends in ministry, you know, And I think it's not, you know, a, you know, a debate that you win, but I think sometimes we make that. That, okay, I've got to try to convince this person that they need Jesus. I got to convince this person to try to debate them to be saved, right? It has to be the Holy Spirit. No one speaking by the spirit of God can see Jesus curse. No one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. And it has to be that. So that. But those elements have to be there, right? We have to have. You have to have the gospel. How can they believe in the one they haven't heard? How can they hear in the one, you know, they haven't. You know. You know, In Romans, chapter 10, you know, how can they call upon the one they haven't believed in? How can they believe in the one they haven't heard? And how can they get. Unless someone preaches the gospel has to be present, you know, the Holy Spirit reveals who Christ is, who scripture says. And then all of a sudden we see this Change because of their faith coming into that place in that chain. And I think also it really is important for us to show our vulnerability, our vulnerable state that we were dead. And I think that when you approach people instead of saying, okay, you need Jesus, you're going to hell, you're dead, you're a bad person, instead of coming from that approach, and you come from approaches saying, listen, I was so screwed up, I'm still screwed up. I need Christ every day. I need the grace of God in my life. And when you approach it that way, I think people are more open to reveal or to receive what the Holy Spirit, maybe he's revealing to their hearts. [00:30:47] Speaker C: You know, Brad, I think I agree with you, what you were saying, Brad, about, you know, it's not just a prayer. Like, there's a great example, right? Here's a guy who didn't say a prayer. Holy Spirit talked to his heart, and he just acted on it because he was so convicted and because the Holy Spirit does the work, Right? [00:31:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:07] Speaker C: So in Joe, you and I have talked about. I think we've all talked about salvation is still being worked out in us. Yeah, we see the light and we're walking in it. But it's a continued walk. It's a continued learning. Right. The dynamic of the word just, it changes all the time, but it's not. I think of the guy you were talking about, Brad, and how it didn't happen in one day. It was just a constant him being around people that had that Holy Spirit. I think the Spirit in us influences people that way in a very positive way. Because I think once you know that Holy Spirit starts talking to you, your eyes get open, and that's such a wonderful moment. When you actually see the truth, then you start walking in it. Sometimes it is a prayer, sometimes it's. [00:31:53] Speaker B: At a service, sometimes it's a conversation the prayers has. When we say prayer, we're talking about the traditional salvation prayer because we all pray every day. We, we, we. So, right? So we were fortunate, the three of us, to have a great mentor who understood that, that the, that the prayer. He liked the prayer for a couple reasons. One, because when you see, like the Lord's Prayer, right, the Lord's Prayer was not, was not made to be regurgitated, but it was an example to the disciples on how to pray for someone who has never had a conversation with God. You know, our old mentor understood the importance of, I'm, I'm going to pray with you through this, right? And, and you start to teach someone how to start a conversation with God. And the, the other thing is that he understood, which I understand it is, it could be a moment in time that they could go back to in times of doubt. [00:33:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:07] Speaker B: Since I've been a believer, there are still been times where I go, am I, am I really in Christ? Like, I, there have been times where sin has had such a stronghold on me, even as a believer, even in ministry. There's been times where sin has had such a stronghold in my life that I've questioned my own salvation. And so, you know, our old mentor say, hey, that takes them back to a specific moment in time that is a concrete, like, okay, you know, I had this moment with God and I, I am saved. And I need to just, this is part of my progressive sanctification process. When it's taught like that it's biblical. We have, we have. I know I don't speak for you, but I know we've worked in ministry for so long together. I know you guys have experiences too, where people have used this as like a magic word. [00:34:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:09] Speaker B: That gets you saved. [00:34:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:34:11] Speaker A: Right. [00:34:11] Speaker B: And that's totally missing the mark on the gospel. There is a right and a wrong way to, to approach that prayer. I, I, I think that, Joe, you said some great stuff, though. And what I, what I want to recap on is the idea that you're like, if I could put a pretty little bow kind of on some of the things you're saying. I see often that we try to swap roles with the Holy Spirit, as if we are going to convince you or debate you into believing and confessing and submitting to the lordship of Christ. Put, and that is not our role. That is, that is a hundred percent, absolutely up to the Holy Spirit. We have nothing, zero percent in someone's salvation process. But like, I go back to, you know, Revelation 12:11, where, you know, they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, which is already done. That's Christ's part. And by the word of their testimony, that's our part. You know, when we, when we encounter people, how to look at the good news, we have to, like, I just break this down. Like, let's just keep this really simple. We have two roles. Number one, do you have a physical need that I'm able to, to fulfill? Are you hungry? Are you thirsty? Are you in prison? Are you, you know, are you in addiction? Are you, is your family falling apart? Like, do you need a shoulder to cry? And do you need someone? Is there a physical need that I can fulfill as an ambassador for Christ number one. And number two is let me tell you about what God did for me. And then it's up to the Holy Spirit. I can show, you know, I'll take you through the Romans road I show you in Scripture. And guys, you, you know me, like, I love, I love science. I love apologetics. I love the way that God, that the things of. We should do a whole, whole topic on this at some point because I get excited about it. I love the way that true science and true understanding of the Scriptures do not contradict one another. [00:36:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:43] Speaker B: That they actually are beautifully in harmony because God has allowed us to see some really cool things about, about, you know, creation. And that's really cool. But the thing is, is I have also been tempted myself into being like, I can use my human wisdom and, and the knowledge I have in these areas to now convince you that God is who he says he is. And I, I have been wrong every time I have taken that approach. This is a cool thing to discuss. It's a, it's a, it might be a way to start a conversation with someone, but at the end of the day, it is 100% the Holy Spirit that is going to reveal to that person who he is. And I have. All I can do is meet your physical need to the best of my ability and share who he is and what he's done. [00:37:41] Speaker A: Absolutely. I mean, it's all about, first of all, and it's, it's just what we were talking about in the book of Ephesians here. It's all about, first of all, relationship. And it's not only just introducing them to Christ, but I think there's a certain level of relationship that we have to develop with someone to kind of, in a sense, earn trust. You know, when you help them with a physical need or Christ, what did he do when he was on the earth? He hung out with the sinners, you know, and he's like, you know, well, why, why does your rabbi hang out with the sinners? And he was like, well, it's, it's not the well that need a physician, but it's the sick. And I think when we meet people, because again, people don't understand their dad. They don't understand they're sick. If you want to look at it right, they don't understand that. But when you start taking time for people and showing that you're not interested in, you know, getting them to join your club or put another notch on your belt or to give you some money, when they see that there's Nothing in it for you except that you just want to show them love, taking care of that need, and then you just taking them out for lunch. I mean, I'll tell you, the people that impacted me the most weren't the people that were telling me what I was doing wrong. They were the people. People that took time for me first. [00:38:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:59] Speaker A: And developed kind of a relationship. And I think that that's the same model that we got to take as. As ministers of the gospel, we gotta. [00:39:06] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:39:07] Speaker A: Relationship with people and love people. [00:39:09] Speaker C: That's really good. [00:39:09] Speaker A: How do you do that, man? I mean, it's amazing how many times, like, I have sat down and took someone out for lunch or something. And then I wasn't trying to hurry up and get them to say a sinner's prayer. I was just concerned about them. And they're like, okay, Joe, what's going on? What's different about you? Boom. There's the open door right there. [00:39:30] Speaker B: Right? [00:39:30] Speaker A: And then I'm able to say, well, it's Christ. You know, it's definitely about that relationship. [00:39:36] Speaker C: You know, that's good. It's the gospel. And your story. You said it. Revelation. [00:39:41] Speaker B: That's it. [00:39:42] Speaker C: It's the gospel and your story. And I think we all have story. We all have. [00:39:47] Speaker B: Every one of us. [00:39:48] Speaker C: You know, they're all a little different, too. [00:39:50] Speaker B: You said earlier, you. You had made that statement that you were going into a prison, and you're like, oh, my story isn't, you know, anything like these guys. [00:39:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:59] Speaker B: It's not about you. It's not about, you know, none of every one of us. You know, you guys would be bored with my story. No, but you know what? [00:40:09] Speaker C: But you know what? That's the whole thing. Right. It reaches, you know, our story reaches everywhere. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:15] Speaker B: And. And it. The story's not about us. [00:40:18] Speaker A: It's not. [00:40:18] Speaker B: It's about. We're not. We're not the rescuer. [00:40:21] Speaker C: You know what? The thing of it is, is I still had to make that decision. [00:40:25] Speaker B: Bingo. [00:40:25] Speaker C: And even after I made that decision, I told the Brad and I said, God, what about. What about all this other stuff? And he spoke to me so gently and said, who else? Anywhere, any religion came back to life. [00:40:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:40] Speaker C: Then you start reading that truth, and you're like, you know, it's. It's. That was the moment. I'm like, you know what? I'm done doubting that it's over. You know, and, you know, yeah, I was raised in the church, you know, but I still had to have that moment. And I remember that moment laying in my bed going, you know what? I really need to believe this. And I was a young kid, you know, but I had to believe it. And once I believed, I tell you what, man, the Holy Spirit is. You have those moments with the Holy Spirit in Christ. And just like you're saying, you can look back on those days and it is so if it takes faith. We can't please them without faith. But when you look back on the experiences you have, wherever it was, you know, it could have been. It could have been a church, a concert, music, something, you know, you have those moments that you're like, wow, that's. That's all God. I've had it driving down the expressway, like, whoa. All right, cool, you know, let's go. I feel like he's sitting in the car, right, with you, talking to you, and you're like, this is heavy. You know. [00:41:43] Speaker A: But, you know, it's interesting too, because, you know, this is one of our favorite passages as ministers to go to is Ephesians 2. Because it's, you know, we say, you know, for it's by grace you're safe through faith. This is not from yourselves, not by works, lest any man should boast most. [00:42:00] Speaker C: Right, right. [00:42:01] Speaker A: You know, we. You know, it's funny you. You'd mentioned, you know, dead know nothing. Well, you know, you could almost look at the same picture of. Of saying that the dead can't do work, you know. [00:42:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:13] Speaker A: So our works cannot contribute. But here's the thing, you know, and I think we're talking about this as well as, you know, in. In view of ministering to others, you know, and taking time for them, you know, we have to understand, even though that the works and we weren't good enough, the Holy Spirit revealed who he was. He created the change in our lives. You know, works are still very important because we're his workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works. [00:42:44] Speaker B: Right. [00:42:44] Speaker A: He prepared in advance for us to do. I think about like, you know, I preached a sermon back in, at a school. I think, Brad, you were. You were with me. We're at a Christian school. And it was like this parallel to scriptures that Christ was speaking of, speaking to his disciples. Actually, the. The Sermon on the Mount in. In chapter six in Matthew, he says, be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Well, the chapter before that he said, in the same way, let your light so shine among men so they can see the Good. You do or see the good deeds and glorify your father in heaven. And, you know, sometimes it almost sounds, you know, kind of contradictory and. Yeah, but minister to others. [00:43:35] Speaker B: You look at the condition of the heart in those days, that's it. [00:43:38] Speaker A: It's all about the condition of the heart. Because in chapter six is a warning. Don't make it about yourself. Right. You know, and I think that a lot of times when we minister, like you were saying earlier, we make it about ourselves. And then the other one is, hey, I'm pointing them to Christ. To me, it's almost like a picture of John the Baptist. Remember in John chapter three, when. When John's disciples were like, hey, John, you know, you know that Jesus guy you were telling us about on the other side of the lake here? He's. He's baptized. They're baptizing. The disciples are baptizing people. That's your gig. That was your thing, you know. Brad, did you hear that other musician? That's your thing, right? That's. That's your idea, right? [00:44:18] Speaker B: I've had some of those conversations, right. [00:44:22] Speaker A: He said, I'm not the Messiah. [00:44:24] Speaker C: Right. [00:44:25] Speaker A: I must decrease so that he can increase. And that's. That's where it comes down to. We got to get ourselves out of the way. Yeah. It's not about our story. It's not about us. Right. But it's all about the change that has happened in our lives. And so when we get do work, you know, showing love to others, taking care of those physical needs, not making it about us, but always pointing at pointing them to Christ, that's when they begin to see that there's something that they need that you have. [00:44:56] Speaker C: And what you're saying, anybody can do as a Christian, you don't have to be a great speaker. You don't have to. You don't have to try. You can just love people, right? Go out. I mean, how many of us have done that? Go out. Hand water bottles out, food, whatever. [00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:45:11] Speaker C: I. I find some of those people that I minister to, they minister to me. [00:45:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:15] Speaker C: They. They blow my mind. Some of them know the scripture. I'm like, where'd you get that from? You know, I got to look that up. It's amazing. I. I've really been. We've all sit there and looked at each other. You know, I've led praise and worship in places where the homeless. That's some of the best congregations I've ever had. Those people know how to sing. They have a hole that they're looking to fill. And a lot of them struggle and they fill it with the wrong thing and they don't know where to go. And it's not a status symbol. It's not about me, it's about Christ. But you don't need to be rich on this planet to have Christ and be rich forever. [00:45:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, one of the things that gets difficult is kind of going back to what you were talking about with the Sermon on the Mount, right? This idea of, you know, if you go too far one way, you're preaching a works based salvation, you go too far the other way, then we become irrelevant as a church because, you know, our faith is not followed up with deed and our works are important, but the condition of the heart absolutely is everything. You know, I, I think probably the most common reason why people don't establish a relationship with Christ is because at least in conversations that I've had, most of them are like, I mean I'm, I've done my part. I have, I have paid up my fire insurance for eternity. I, you know, me, I did, I have gone to, I, I go to Christmas and Easter church CEO, I put, you know, I put a little money in the plate to bribe God. I make sure that I give to charity. [00:47:04] Speaker A: All right? [00:47:04] Speaker B: You know what I mean? And so, and then, and then you get this arrogant. I'm thinking of a couple people in particular recently I've had this conversation with who are like, well, if God wants to throw me, you know, in hell because I fed a homeless person, but I, you know, I didn't feel like going to church. It's like, you're missing the whole point of this. [00:47:24] Speaker A: Right. [00:47:25] Speaker B: You know, and, but on the other side of it, we have, we, we have terrible examples on the other side that are, that are like, well I, it's all about making this decision. We're going to, I've seen churches hold hot dogs, ransomware until you sit through this message and fill out this card. [00:47:45] Speaker A: Right? [00:47:45] Speaker B: And it's like man hungry, feed them, you know? [00:47:49] Speaker C: Yes. [00:47:50] Speaker B: So, and, and I'm not trying to bash any ministries because Lord knows I have, when I get to heaven, I've got a laundry list of things in ministry that I've done wrong and probably will continue to do wrong for the rest of my life. So I'm not, I'm not judging harshly in any way. I'm just saying that, that the work should follow the believer because of the relationship. And the works are not something that get us into heaven. They, they certainly don't keep us out of heaven. But they are how we establish credibility. [00:48:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:48:28] Speaker B: With the world. I mean, the works are not the. [00:48:31] Speaker A: Condition of salvation, but the fruit of it. [00:48:34] Speaker B: Right, Exactly. Bingo. You said it much better than I did. [00:48:37] Speaker A: No, no. [00:48:38] Speaker B: We could have just edited out, well, one sentence, everything I just said. [00:48:44] Speaker C: No, Joe, when you said, there it is. [00:48:48] Speaker A: Now. But, but, but it's important to understand that, you know, that the works are important just because it does show it's, you know, the fruit, you know. Right. You know, the Galatians 5, 22. Love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentle self control. We, we have this fruit that happens in us and grows in us because of what has happened in our hearts. And I think, honestly, if, if we don't have that, that should be very concerning. If John talks about, if you don't love your brother, sister, you are. If you say you follow Christ and you hate your brother or sister, you're a liar. And that's harsh, but it's true. If we don't love people and, and, and show them how much we love them by our works, you know, that really should give us an indication that something's going on in our hearts. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And love doesn't mean. Love is a verb. I'm an firm believer of that. That requires action. But love doesn't mean affirming a feeling or affirming, you know, a sin or something like that. You know, look, we'll probably get canceled for this right here in episode four. But, you know, the hot. One of the hot topics right now with the church in America is abortion. And obviously I think that life begins at conception. And I believe that life is precious. I mean, it's given by God. On the other side of it, there are so many people who are more focused on holding up a hateful sign or legislating, legislating against it and, you know, vote your conscience. I'm not talking anything that, that's not, that's not a political thing at all. What I'm saying is that if we put the effort into realizing that there's a mother dealing with the hardest decision that she'll ever make in her life, and we look at the person and we minister to the person and she has her physical needs met. Most, most, most abortions happen because there is a lack of, of means, right to provide. And so, yeah, if we provided a solution and introduced them to Christ and God moves there, then a natural byproduct will be a reduction in abortion. [00:51:31] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:51:31] Speaker B: You know what I mean? I think that I think that we are missing an opportunity. And we. Instead of waiting for Washington or waiting for, in our case, Lansing, to fix the abortion problem, we have to look to Christ and. And be. And be the solution. [00:51:52] Speaker A: Yes. [00:51:52] Speaker B: Like, we have to provide the solution. [00:51:55] Speaker A: Because what's happening is like we're. We're basically trying to treat symptoms and we're not getting them. Exactly. [00:52:01] Speaker B: Exactly. I'm not just picking. I. I know I'm talking about one issue, and I'm not picking on that one issue, but it's several things. I mean, the reality of it is, is that we have the means. Just the church alone has the means, I believe, to end homelessness in America. I. You cannot convince me otherwise. You know what I'm saying? But I. But we're not. You know, and that's. I always go back to like, can this person even be open to a conversation about Christ if all they can think about is, I'm starving. Right. So, like. [00:52:42] Speaker A: That's a good point. That's an absolute good point. You know, kind of going on your thought, too, with that. You know, I think about what Paul says next in us when he. Going down to verse 14, when he says, for he himself is our peace has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility. I was thinking about that dividing wall of hostility that Christ has destroyed between Jew and Gentile, where, like, there's. There's one group now. But so many times, just like you're saying, the church creates these dividing walls of hostility, whether it's, you know, denominational barriers, whether it's, you know, political barriers, whether it's, you know, you got too much sin in your life, you can't sign her book and join her, like love. [00:53:29] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:29] Speaker A: You know, and I believe that we. [00:53:31] Speaker B: How are they supposed to. How are they supposed to call upon the name of Jesus when we can't agree on carpet color and we spread a church over it. [00:53:39] Speaker A: Wait, church is divine for that? Are you kidding me? [00:53:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:47] Speaker A: It'S. [00:53:47] Speaker B: I know, right? [00:53:48] Speaker A: About carpet. We got a, you know, meeting, you know, meeting on our carpet. [00:53:52] Speaker B: That's, you know, these are important things. We have a responsibility. I think when we go back and look at, you know, this transformation that takes place. We were once, you know, like in Ephesians 2 that we're talking about. We were once under the jurisdiction of sin. We have this sinful nature. We were once people divided. And now Christ has brought Jew and Gentile together, that it's no longer about the physical circumcision, that it's about the circumcision of the heart, you know, and, and that it has become a heart issue that it always was, by the way. You know what I mean? And so he's bridged the gap between Jew and Gentile and God's people. Kind of like we talked about a couple episodes ago, you know, when you brought up that question, do we become Israel when we are believers? And I think spiritually speaking, we do. We all become God's people. And our. Are subject to the, you know, Abraham's promise that was given to him. And, and, and so now in, in doing so, we were once dead in sin. We are now alive in Christ. And now that we are alive in Christ, these works should follow us. The new being, the new creation that we see in Second Corinthians, that new creation should, like you were saying, display fruit that represents the kingdom of God. [00:55:30] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, and I love it, man, because it all comes back down to what we're getting ready to celebrate now. That's right. One of my favorite passages is 1st John 5, 11, and 12. And it says, and this is the testimony that God has given us eternal life. The life is in the Son. Whoever has the Son has life. Whoever does not have the Son, does not. And the bottom line is, man, we. We have to have price. We have to have Jesus, and we have to get this to as many people. But the way that we do it must be from a position of humility, love, and not sitting up, not, you know, trying to say, you know, the sin is, okay, I'm going to accept your sin, but I love you enough to present truth to you no matter how much it hurts. Because truth, I'm telling you, every time I open up that Bible, man, it. [00:56:20] Speaker B: It hurts. [00:56:21] Speaker A: It hurts me up. And, you know, and there's a lot of things I wish were a little different in scripture, but, you know, my love for Christ, his love was displayed on the cross while I was still the center. My love for him now is opening that book and saying, okay, I gotta submit to whatever you want me to. I gotta live my life as closely to this as I can. And I've gotta love people and I've got to not condemn them because Jesus himself, you know, the Bible says that God sent a son into the world to condemn the world, but that through him the world might be saved. We can't bash people. We can't. [00:56:58] Speaker B: We have to love people are not our enemy. We gotta get away from this idea that if I'm a believer and you're not A believer. We are now enemies, and the people are not our enemy, right? No. [00:57:10] Speaker C: No. [00:57:10] Speaker B: Our fight is. Is in the spiritual. It is not against the person sitting across the table. You are not my enemy. I'm here because I love you. And I just want to know, how can I serve you and. And. And love you? Share. Share truth and love. How can I serve you? And how. Let me share with you what God has done. [00:57:34] Speaker A: Well, what you were saying just yesterday, Philippians 2, right. That he humbled himself and became a servant in human form. Right? That's. That's the model we got to live, right? [00:57:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, if Jesus left his throne to come to be a servant for us, how much more should we. [00:57:53] Speaker C: He. [00:57:54] Speaker B: You know, it's just. It's spectacular. It's my. It's my favorite Christmas passage is Philippians 2, man. And you just look at the. [00:58:02] Speaker A: So beautiful, man. [00:58:03] Speaker B: It is simplicity of the gospel there. So good stuff, guys. We're already 58 minutes. Wow. [00:58:12] Speaker A: Dang. [00:58:12] Speaker B: That's crazy. Totally crazy. Yeah, it's good, though. Yeah. So, you know, obviously we're talking about a lot of things and. But it all starts with a relationship with Christ. And if you feel that God's tugging on your heart and you don't have a relationship with Christ, but you want to establish one, we would love to hear from you. You can email us at infohegatheringhouse Church. It's simple. It's believing, confessing submitting to the lordship of Christ because we're all sinners. And while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So it's not coming from a pompous place. It's just. I'm just grateful. [00:59:00] Speaker C: Wonderful. It's a wonderful thing that while. [00:59:03] Speaker B: While he was hanging from. From a cross, he was thinking of you and I. [00:59:09] Speaker A: How. [00:59:11] Speaker B: How does that not humble you? I don't understand how that puts you in a place of pride, but it's unbelievable. You know what I mean? And as we are kind of in this Christmas time, just the idea that he left his throne to become a baby for us, it's pretty special. [00:59:29] Speaker A: It is. [00:59:31] Speaker B: If you have questions, if you have comments related to this or unrelated to this, we would love to hear from you. Info@thegatheringhouse church. Of course you can go on our website, www.thegatheringhouse.church. there's a podcast tab where you can access more podcasts. Assuming that I didn't get us canceled, and hopefully we have an episode five. No, it's. Look, it is what it is, man. We just. We love people and. And this. I just want to tell people what he did for me. So tune in for our next episode. We're going to continue on in Ephesians. And other than that, guys, I love you guys. Merry Christmas. [01:00:16] Speaker C: Merry Christmas. [01:00:17] Speaker B: Send my love to all your families. We will catch you all on on the next episode here as we continue on in Ephesians 2. Thanks, guys. Take care. [01:00:30] Speaker C: You too.