S1:E1 "Predestination Vs Free Will"

[00:00:12] Speaker A: Hey, how are you? Welcome to the Gathering House Postscript podcast. My name is Brad Stewart. I am the senior pastor at the Gathering House Church, and I'm here with Phil Campbell and Joe Olinger. You guys want to introduce yourselves? [00:00:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Hey, I'm Phil Campbell and I get the distinct pleasure to lead worship on Sunday morning. It's truly an honor. [00:00:38] Speaker A: We have great worship here. [00:00:40] Speaker C: I'm the associate pastor and I correct all of Brad's doctrine. [00:00:44] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. He fixes everything that I screw up. So we guys, we did it. This is our first podcast. [00:00:55] Speaker B: Number uno. [00:00:55] Speaker A: Uno, number one. [00:00:57] Speaker B: Right on. [00:00:58] Speaker A: I'm excited because this is what middle aged men do. We start podcasts. So I feel like I finally. I've made it to manhood. So I'm excited to go down this journey with you. The vision, just for those of you that are watching or listening, wherever that may be, the kind of vision behind this is really just to have a roundtable discussion around our Sunday morning topics. We had discussed streaming our services, which for right now we've opted not to do. And. But we have obviously some. I have the privilege of working with some brilliant guys in ministry, and so I love when we get to have roundtable discussions. And so right now we are going through the book of Ephesians. We're starting off right there in. In chapter one. And so we're. We're just gonna round round table these. These topics. And in the future, we're gonna have ministry highlights. If there's questions that you have, there's gonna be opportunity for question and answer. We'll have special guests in the future. We have plans for all kinds of things. But for right now, we're starting off in Ephesians chapter one, kicking this whole thing off. So let's start off because that's going to be the most important thing, that we just get out of the way and allow God to just be the center of this conversation. And Pastor Joe, do you want to kick us off in prayer, man? [00:02:26] Speaker C: Absolutely, Heavenly Father, God, we just. God, we come to you, Lord. I'm just so thankful, God, that, Lord, that we don't even have to be face to face, Lord, even though we have technology, Lord, we. We still don't have to be physically together, but Lord, that we are together in spirit, God, and we just ask that you would be with us tonight, God, and that you would just direct the conversation, Lord. And Father, we just pray that, God, that we would just be able to just hear your voice tonight and just be completely led of you and Just hopefully cover topics that maybe people have concerns and questions over. And. And Father, we would just be able to just come together as brothers and just. I don't know, man. Just fellowship. I just look at this as a time of fellowship, Lord, with my brothers. Lord, we just be with us tonight. Direct the process. We love you. We praise in Jesus name. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Amen. [00:03:24] Speaker B: Amen. [00:03:25] Speaker A: All right, so we know from the first two verses. Spoiler alert, guys. From the first two verses in Ephesians 1, that it's Paul that's writing the letter. And Paul's an apostle. Paul is the only apostle that was not around when Jesus had his earthly ministry, but he had experience with God on the road to Damascus and was taught by God. And so he is an apostle who's writing to the church of Ephesus. And just a couple things about Ephesus. Ephesus is. Was the capital of Asia Minor at that time, located in what's now Turkey. It was under Roman control, but mainly operated independently for the most part, but it was under Roman control at the time. And there's this mix of Messianic Jews and Gentiles who have experienced Christ and are, you know, the. The church is growing and exploding, this underground scene. And it's just kind of. This is special church. And you can really see it when Paul's writing. And so as we dive into that, that's who Paul's talking to. It's important. We talk about this all the time, guys. Keeping Scripture in context. Who, what, when, where? [00:04:48] Speaker C: Why? [00:04:49] Speaker A: Because if one of the. One of the things that drives me the craziest and so tempting to do is to. Is to insert ourselves into the story. And there's truth in the scriptures. I believe that with everything in me. But we learn that truth through understanding the context. Who was writing, why were they writing? To whom were they writing? And then the overall truth of that ends up applying to us. Otherwise, if we put a 21st century American, you know, twist on this, Scripture can get kind of dangerous. So. [00:05:27] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:05:27] Speaker A: So that's who we're writing to. Phil, why don't you. Our main text is Ephesians, chapter 1, verses 3 to 14. Why don't we dive into that and we'll start kicking around? [00:05:39] Speaker B: All right. Yeah, let's do it. This Ephesian one, what do we say? Yep. Chapter 1, 3, 14. Okay. All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ. Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. God decided in advance to adopt into his, adopt us into his family, his own family, by bringing us to Himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure. So we praise God for the glorious grace he has poured out on us who belong to his dear Son. He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of His Son and forgave our sins. He has showered his kindness on us along with fall wisdom and understanding. God has now revealed to us his mysterious will regarding Christ which is to fulfill his own good plan. And this is the plan. At the right time, he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ, everything in heaven and on earth. Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for He chose us in advance and he makes everything work out according to his plan. God's purpose was that we Jews, who were the first to trust in God, would bring praise and glory to God. And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the good news that God saves you. And when you believe in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit whom He promised long ago. The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify Him. [00:07:43] Speaker A: Good stuff. [00:07:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:44] Speaker A: So just so you guys who are reading or listening out there watching, you might hear several versions. I'm an ESV guy. That was nlt, right? [00:07:56] Speaker B: Yep. [00:07:56] Speaker C: I have the correct version. [00:07:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So you might hear different versions. But I think it's important that we, you know, really go across different versions because for sure, you know, the, the essence of Scripture is the same. All right, let's jump into it. So the major thing we're kicking off this episode one is kicking off with one of the most controversial topics in the church right now. So I guess we should preface this with the fact that what we're going to discuss today, there, there is essential doctrine and, and then there are the minors that we can argue over. And we, we should just lay it out there. We as believers do not have to agree on every little thing that doesn't make someone not a believer just because you don't agree with the same viewpoint that I have in the mechanics of salvation and all that stuff. The point is Christ. So as long as we agree on the majors, you know, that it's salvation by grace through faith, the foundation with, you know, what Christ did on the cross. That's, that's the important part. So everything else up for debate. So let's get into this. We're talking about, you know, this passage has sparked debate between election, predestination versus free will and in regards to salvation, you know, are people hand selected by God for heaven and hell, or do we have free will to choose or deny Christ? And really, I mean, that leads us into some subtopics too. I mean, big subtopics like, you know, did, did Jesus die for the sins of the whole world or, or just for the sins of some. You know what I mean? If we're talking about, if it's the elect, did he die just for the elect? And if we have it, if we, you know, we have a choice, did he die for the whole world or did he. So did he die for some or did he die for all? And, and also, I mean, you're talking about election versus free will of man. How does this impact the sovereignty of God? So there's some deep, deep conversations to have around this passage, in my opinion. So, yeah, let's, you know, let's start off here. Where are you guys at? Election, predestination versus free will. [00:10:45] Speaker C: Well, you know, God will never violate the will of man. I think that we see that pretty plain in scripture, know, and as it pertains to salvation, you know, we have, you know, sometimes, you know, like you said, context is everything. And sometimes we will handpick certain passages and can transform them to say whatever we want them to say. And you just simply cannot escape, you know, that God chose us, the world. He died for the whole world. In fact, First John 2:1, it says, My dear children, I write to you, write this to you, that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous one. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only ours, but also for the sins of the whole world. Yeah, you can't escape that. I mean, we have to understand that to understand God's predestined plan for our lives or his predestined to be the answer to overcoming sin. You know, you have to understand that God is omniscient. And I think that's kind of where people kind of mess up. It's not necessarily, you know, looking at the doctrine and stuff, but really it's, it's wording, you know what I mean? It's like they get so confused with, okay, the word election, the word of predestination, and sometimes, you know, we can have this misconception of, okay, is it the predestined plan or is it God's omniscience, His all knowing that he knew what man would do? You know what I mean? [00:12:32] Speaker A: That's, that's. I mean, there's a lot to that. [00:12:37] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:37] Speaker A: First of all, you covered like several topics. Yeah, it really is. [00:12:41] Speaker C: And it kind of does kind of bleed all into a puddle here. You know what I mean? [00:12:46] Speaker B: But it's a choice. [00:12:48] Speaker C: Yeah, it's absolutely a choice. [00:12:49] Speaker B: It's a choice. [00:12:50] Speaker C: Never violate the will of man. [00:12:52] Speaker B: Right. And you don't know until it's revealed by the Holy Spirit. [00:12:56] Speaker A: When I go over this, when I look at this systematically, I kind of got to break this down. Like, I believe that, or at least what I see in Scripture is because of man's sinful nature, we will never choose God. [00:13:16] Speaker C: Right. [00:13:17] Speaker A: Without first being drawn by the Holy Spirit. So, so I think that that's kind of item number one. Before you even get into the idea of predestination versus free will, it's like, look, we, we. We come out of the womb with, you know, we'll get into a later sermon on the idea that. I believe also that sin is not just something that we do or a nature that we have, but also a jurisdiction that we live under. But without going there yet, you know, this, this idea that our sinful nature is always going to cause me to reject the things of God first. [00:14:01] Speaker C: Right? [00:14:01] Speaker A: And you know, when we look at Romans 3, you know, 10 to 12, you know, it says, as it's written, none is righteous. Not one. Nobody's righteous. Right? [00:14:11] Speaker C: Right. [00:14:11] Speaker A: No, no one understands. No one seeks for God. All have turned aside together. They have become worthless. No one does good, not even one. So, so we. Everything that we do is, is totally depraved, right? And, and we will never choose God. Then you look at First Corinthians, chapter 2, verse 14, right? The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. We aren't even capable, right? It's not even like we're. We're evil in nature coming out of the womb, and we're not even capable. And the things of God are folly. And then you finish it off with John 6:44, which is, you know, no one can come to the Father unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day and to Me, that is just cut and dry, that I'm not even capable of being. Even if there's a. If there's. Before we even get to predestination or free will. [00:15:27] Speaker C: Right. [00:15:28] Speaker A: I'm not even capable of having a choice unless the Spirit first draws me in. [00:15:36] Speaker B: You can't imagine a life without sin in it, right? [00:15:40] Speaker A: No. So it's unfathomable. I mean, I daydream about it. I would love to get to that point. [00:15:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Because you'd have no temptations, you'd have no weakness, you'd have no nothing. Right. You'd see the truth all the time. But that's not what we were born into. [00:15:54] Speaker A: That's not what we're born into. But that's what the Holy Spirit draws us to. [00:15:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:58] Speaker A: There was a point for each one of us that it's not like I went out seeking God. [00:16:03] Speaker C: Right. [00:16:03] Speaker A: No, God sought me. And I think that that's important to delineate here is like it's Christ who first sought us. Well, you know, so go ahead. [00:16:14] Speaker C: Oh, I'm sorry. In John 6:44, you know, Jesus said, no one can come to me unless the Father draws him. Right. So it's the. The Holy Spirit is the one who reaches us. I mean, no one's speaking by the Spirit of God. Can't say Jesus is cursed, but no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. There has to be that revelation of who Jesus is. And by coming into that knowledge of that truth, it exposes the sinful nature in us. And then now we're exposed to it, and then we're able to come in. And ultimately, just like you were saying, I think that our sinful nature's will is to stay in sin. Is to stay. [00:16:57] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:16:58] Speaker B: I don't think, you know, you're a sinner, you don't know your sinner until. Yes. [00:17:04] Speaker A: Always want to stay in that place. I mean, that's what Paul talks about between the wrestle, you know, between flesh. [00:17:11] Speaker B: That's right. [00:17:13] Speaker C: It's not I who sin, but it's the sinful nature in me that Paul talks about. [00:17:16] Speaker A: Exactly. As believers. As believers. It's, you know, now we're. We're a man kind of split. So it's absolutely. So we. I think we're in agreement that it's Christ that, you know, it's the Holy Spirit that draws us in first. That we're never gonna choose God first. That he's always going to choose us first. [00:17:40] Speaker C: We love because he first loved us. [00:17:42] Speaker A: Right, exactly. Now that leads us into the election, predestination or free will. So when we're talking about Ephesians one here, you know, there's a lot surrounding this and I, I want to be clear, like if you're listening, don't take what we say is gospel. I just have spent some time really wrestling with these passages. And I, I tend to look at Ephesians 1 referring to. It's more about Christ than it is about us. Like when we're talking about, you know, from the foundations of the world, that he should be holy and blameless in love. He predestined us for adoptions to himself as sons through Christ according to his purpose and will. I tend to view that right or wrong, I tend to view that as Christ. This passage being about Christ and it about being not about the individual as much as we in our 21st century minds like to make scripture about the individual, but about humanity. Like, I've predestined adoption for humanity. And that's, that's kind of where I, I land on the other side. There is still, there is still these scriptures that support election, you know, when. But both exist. Choice. I see, I see guys, I see where choice and election both exist in scriptures. And I, I don't know what you guys think about this, but like I go obviously to John 1, right, 12 and 13, where it says, but to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, right, Who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but God. So we believe. It's like, right in this passage, you see kind of both, you see the will of God, which, But you also see those who believe. And I don't think that you can believe something without the chance to not believe it also. [00:20:10] Speaker C: Right. [00:20:11] Speaker A: You know, and so I see both. And I look at Mark 13:20, you know, it says, and if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect whom he chose, he shortened the days. There is election. You know what I mean? [00:20:32] Speaker B: Couldn't we have all been elected? I mean, he talks about, you look around, you see the stars, you see the heavens. Hey, somebody made that right something, right? You know, what the weather is going to be. And so I know we say elect for sure, but is the elect somebody who just goes, you know what? I've put all the math together and it adds up that somebody created this. [00:20:57] Speaker A: It's possible. [00:20:58] Speaker B: You start getting curious about it and you get some knowledge. He first loved us, isn't it? That's nice, to be loved. [00:21:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:21:06] Speaker B: Right. To be chosen and to be loved. And he already did that for us. Now he gives us that choice. [00:21:13] Speaker C: Right? [00:21:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:21:15] Speaker C: Whom you will serve, right? [00:21:16] Speaker A: Well, yeah. So now we're getting into like. That was one of the passages I was going to bring up. I mean, there's so many places where. And then when you're talking about, Remember also when you're talking about predestination and election, you have to include, you know, it's based on the foreknowledge. Also, like, you know, you look at 1st Peter 1 and Romans 8, you know, Romans 8. Right. For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed into the. So some of these. But then like you said, you know, choose this day who. Whom you're going to serve. Right. And then I, I see, I see times where the sovereignty of God has superseded the will of man. Like in Exodus. Right. When you have Pharaoh who. There are times where Pharaoh hardened his heart. Right. If you look at. I think it's in Exodus 7 to 12. Don't quote me on that. [00:22:25] Speaker B: Yeah, you're getting there. That's right. [00:22:27] Speaker A: So in when they're doing this back and forth thing in Exodus, there are times where Pharaoh hardened his. His heart toward God. There are other times where God hardened Pharaoh's heart. [00:22:40] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:22:40] Speaker A: And so I see both kind of coexisting together in the scriptures that you have the free will of man that exists within the sovereignty of God. I believe that the elect. You cannot deny the fact that Scripture calls believers elect, but you also can't deny that there are several places in Scripture that refer to choice and belief, faith, things like that. I mean, you can't. I guess what I'm saying is where I land is that the mechanics of salvation are a mystery to me that belong to God. And the fact that I can't understand it fully on how it happens. I don't know if it's 100% God and 0% me or 99.9% God and 0.01%. I don't know what the mechanics of salvation look like, but the fact that I can't understand it is further proof that his ways are higher than my ways and his thoughts are higher than my thoughts. And if I could understand it, guys, he. He wouldn't be God. [00:23:59] Speaker B: Right? [00:23:59] Speaker A: So it, it kind of. I'm good. I'm good with letting it rub weird. [00:24:06] Speaker C: Right. [00:24:06] Speaker A: In the scriptures, not knowing exactly how it works, you know. [00:24:11] Speaker C: You know, like getting back to Pharaoh, though. Like, you know, one of the, you know, people tend to go to Romans chapter nine, for instance. Right. They'll go to that one talking about how, you know, Pharaoh or God chose Pharaoh to fulfill this purpose so that his name would be glorified in all nations or all. In all the nations. Sorry. But I think about that though. Like how in that instant, it wasn't necessarily just God just simply completely controlling the playing field there, but God knew Pharaoh's heart. Right. God knew that what Pharaoh, in his omniscience, knew exactly what Pharaoh would do. And I think, to me, I look at it as like Romans chapter one, that there's a time when we're choosing wickedness over God, that there's a time that God will simply give us over to the lusts of our flesh. And in a sense is this picture of the hardening of the heart and in that foreknowledge of God and that omniscience of God, knowing the decisions that we'll make, God will take that and use it for his glory. Right. And I think that's kind of what we see with Pharaoh, you know? You know, and I even look at, you know, going actually going to Romans 9. I. I was reading that today where a lot of people will even get tied up on, you know, that. That God, you know, he shows mercy on. Who shows mercy. And he, you know, we get into that whole big thing. And so that kind of opens up a whole another can. But it's like the. [00:25:49] Speaker A: Well, that in and of itself drives me crazy. [00:25:52] Speaker C: It does. [00:25:52] Speaker A: In the Calvinism versus Arminianism. [00:25:55] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:55] Speaker A: Debate. Only because the context is always removed out of that. Because you're talking about the whole history of the lineage, you know, of Israel. [00:26:10] Speaker C: Right. [00:26:11] Speaker A: And if, If God chooses to cut off a physical bloodline, because not all in Israel are Israel, Right. Then. Then who. Who is Israel to turn around through this bloodline and. And tell God, Right. That he can't do that. So. So context is totally ripped away from that. [00:26:33] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:26:34] Speaker A: And. And used poorly, in my opinion. [00:26:37] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:38] Speaker A: That's a whole other. [00:26:39] Speaker B: I think of the nation. I think of some of the nations that get wiped out. Right. When the children of Israel came out of Egypt, right. They went to war and they literally. You don't even know about those people anymore. So you got to wonder where that came from. Did that not come from the blessing of God, like through the children? And it was another, Another race, another. Another, you know, people that weren't chosen by God or did. Did their forefathers sin carry through? [00:27:09] Speaker A: You know, you start getting into the. Again, like getting into the mind of God. And why, why Abraham? Well, I, you know, I can't pick every reason. He's God. [00:27:24] Speaker B: Yeah, he does what he wants to do. [00:27:26] Speaker C: Right. [00:27:26] Speaker A: But, but you see, even going back to that point, that bloodline was never, was never the biggest deal. All right, it was a factor, but it was never the biggest factor. God always allowed for those who were not of, you know, Abraham's descent. An opportunity for repentance, an opportunity for relationship. You can see time and time again where it's always because God's unchanging. You know, it's not like we have this God of the Old Testament that's big and mean. And then, you know, the Jesus of the New Testament is like a big old loving teddy bear. And like. No, it's the same God. There is, there is mercy and judgment that are always married together for sure. And, and it has always been about the condition of the heart and the relationship with God. Yeah, that's, that's that. You know what I mean? Yeah, but I mean, coming back to. Without going down all that rabbit trail, coming back to the mechanics of salvation, I, I gotta tell you guys, I don't understand it. And, you know, does God choose us? Yeah, I think he does. I think scripture says, yes, he does choose us. Do we have a responsibility for our actions? [00:28:51] Speaker B: There you go. That's what I'm thinking. [00:28:52] Speaker A: Do we have to make a choice for Christ? Yeah, I think we do. How much of that is on us and how much of that is on God? I'll never know until, you know, we get to the other side of heaven. [00:29:08] Speaker B: But we even get into how you know about God. Right. We're supposed to spread the gospel. Go ye into all the world and spread. Right. So if I'm talking to somebody and I'm talking to them, is it me that's talking? No, because the Holy Spirit revealed himself in me as I talk to them. That's the Holy Spirit talking to them. I'm not smart enough to tell them about that. Right, right. [00:29:31] Speaker C: Go ahead. [00:29:32] Speaker A: Oh, go ahead. [00:29:32] Speaker C: Just saying that Paul said, you know, you know, I, I planted some water and it's Christ, it's God who, who provides the increase, you know, and it's, it really does come back to that. [00:29:43] Speaker A: There are a couple things, because I, I want to be clear, like, I believe that God chose us, but I also believe that we, there is some element of choice for us. Obviously, Based in scripture, but also just the thought of. Guys, what's the point of the Great Commission if it's all just worked out anyway? Why aren't we all sitting on a beach in Mexico right now? Because who cares if we have no impact, right? What's it matter any. What's the point of the Great Commission? Or think about this. If we have. Are you capable of sin? If you're not capable of having free will? [00:30:30] Speaker C: Right. [00:30:30] Speaker A: If all you can do is execute mindlessly execute what God has predestined you to do, are you capable of sin? [00:30:40] Speaker B: Right. You always have a choice. [00:30:43] Speaker C: I like what you said before, Brad, when you said that. So in that mindset, if someone does sin, are they fulfilling the will of God? [00:30:52] Speaker A: Right. Which would make it not sin. [00:30:56] Speaker C: Right. It doesn't make it. It collapses completely. [00:31:00] Speaker A: Exactly. It becomes a paradox. And maybe I'm just stupid. I mean, that's always a possibility. But I really go back to. I don't like. I don't like to. I don't like to take credit for salvation ever, because it wasn't us, Right? Right. It was. It was only because of what God did on the other side. I don't like to remove responsibility from us because we are culpable. And the only way we can be culpable in my human mind anyway is if we have. I like. I don't. If I told my computer here that's sitting in front of me to love me, and it could say. It could. It could type. I could tell, you know, this. This computer in front of me, like. [00:31:49] Speaker B: I'm sure it would crash. [00:31:51] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:31:52] Speaker C: Virus. [00:31:52] Speaker A: I could say, hey, tell me you love me. And it could spit out, I love you, Brad. [00:31:57] Speaker C: Right. [00:31:58] Speaker A: You know what I mean? But does it love me? No, it's. It was. I programmed it to say that. Right? What makes you able to love or be loved is the capability to not love and not be loved. [00:32:13] Speaker C: Well, you know, like, even. Even the fall of man, I think, you know, a lot of people are like, well, was that God's plan B? You know, after man fell that, you know, was Christ kind of the plan B? No, it was his original plan. He was chosen for the creation of the world. But really, I. There was a minister years ago that said, you know, how could we have known what love was or how to love until that choice not to love was there until sin entered into the world. I mean, they didn't know any different, but to love God. But now we experience his grace when we don't deserve it. We experience his mercy. Right. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:54] Speaker C: And that's. That goes much deeper, you know, than. Than just simply being a mindless robot going around. [00:33:00] Speaker A: Totally. [00:33:01] Speaker C: Okay. [00:33:02] Speaker B: You know, but that's the beauty of it. That's the beauty of it. If we're not mindless robots and we make a choice, and when you make that choice, he meets you there, obviously nobody's good enough to make it to heaven on their own. But he made a way, right? It's sure better than sacrificing animals on burnt offerings. And he had to do that all the time, right? [00:33:26] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, look, at the end of the day, if it's 100% election and we have nothing, if all we're doing is mindlessly executing, fine, right? He's God. He can do what he wants to do. [00:33:38] Speaker C: Can the plague tell the potter, why did you make me this way? [00:33:41] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. No, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna go tell him that he can. And that's okay. I don't. I don't see that in scripture. [00:33:47] Speaker C: Right. [00:33:49] Speaker A: But I, But I. Fine. If that's how it is or if it's some combination of God, right. Through his sovereignty, allowing us to make a choice that's illuminated by his Holy Spirit, I'm good with that. And I tend to. I tend to think that's more what it is. But whatever it looks like, ultimately it's salvation by grace through faith based on what he accomplished on the cross and not by our own doing anyway. [00:34:21] Speaker C: And getting back to predestined, you know, going back to the text in verse three, when Paul says, praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ, for he chose us in him before the creation world to be holy and blameless in his sight, in love. He predestined us for adoption of sonship through Jesus Christ. When I. When I read that, this is really just his predestined plan, right? This is just his plan. This is not like, you know, God is saying, okay, this is what I predestined. This was the answer that I knew was going to need to be, you know, right. Taking place in our lives. But you look at the predestination. I mean, you look at the beginning of that chapter, Paul, he opens up. I love this. He says, paul, an apostle, Jesus Christ by the will of God. So you see, Paul, the Bible says that God chose him while he was in his mother's womb to be an apostle to the Gentiles. That was his plan. Paul had the ability to completely reject that plan. Right. But thankfully Paul chose that plan. So now we even see in the same passage that even Christ, his predestined plan was to be the redemption. Right. And then now our predestined plan is to fulfill the Great Commission. Now can I go ahead and just completely reject that? Absolutely. But because the Holy Spirit has revealed who Jesus is and exposed my need for him and that I cannot escape, I cannot make it without him. I know I'm spiritually hopeless and helpless without him. I'm going to choose the side of him and I'm going to do my best to fulfill this Great Commission. Know what I mean? But the predestined plan was that I am now adopted into the kingdom. Right? [00:36:22] Speaker A: Yeah. That's kind of what I was getting at earlier is I think that this passage is more about what Christ did, who he is and what Christ did for humanity than necessarily about the individual. [00:36:35] Speaker B: But it's an eye opening thing, right. We're trying to explain it to people who might not understand it, but when. [00:36:42] Speaker A: You probably see it, bad job, probably. [00:36:44] Speaker B: But when you see it, you know it. Right. I mean, I talk about that all the time. Is. It's hard to go back to when you, when you know something. Right. When you're a kid and you start, you losing innocence, if you will, you understand adulthood a little. You can't go back and not know that. Right, Right. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Well, look, that's the heartbeat of sharing the gospel, right? Is. So we are called to the Great Commission to go share the good news everywhere. And, and I, I love that we have that, that calling that God's called. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Us to, that the ultimate. [00:37:18] Speaker A: But nothing that I say, like we have an understanding, nothing that we say to the individual is going to convince them. [00:37:29] Speaker C: Right. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Of who God is. The only way that they can have an understanding of who God is is by the Spirit, right. You know, revealing himself to that person and drawing them in. [00:37:43] Speaker B: But you're carrying. [00:37:43] Speaker A: I'm just thankful that we get to be part of the process. [00:37:46] Speaker B: Yes. [00:37:46] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:47] Speaker A: You and I talk about this all. Yes. We get a front row seat. [00:37:50] Speaker B: Front row. [00:37:51] Speaker A: Watch what God does. And that is exciting to just be part of that process. [00:37:56] Speaker B: It's amazing. [00:37:57] Speaker A: It's totally awesome. So I think I know where you guys land on this next question then. But you know, we're on it, so we have to go there. Whose sins did Jesus die for? Was it the elect or is it. [00:38:12] Speaker B: The whole world says it's the whole world, right? [00:38:16] Speaker A: I mean, listen, no, this is A real debate, you guys. That I was, I was talking to someone very close to me. I won't name who I. Who I love. And I, and this person is a believer. And undoubtedly I believe they're going to heaven, you know what I mean? And have a relationship with God. But we disagree on some of the mechanics of how this works. And they believe that Jesus died for the sins of the elect based off of some of these passages and not for the sins of the whole world. [00:38:52] Speaker B: Wow. So that, so that means you're only talking to the elect. Then if you go out and witness and you go to some alley and you find some. Somebody there, that's the elect, that's his. [00:39:04] Speaker A: That's their belief. Many of them, Many of them believe that if they, if you go out and share the gospel with them and they receive it, then they're the elect. And if they reject it, then. Right. Then they, then they're not. Right. [00:39:22] Speaker B: No seed planting. You're not, you're not planting a seed, you're not watering. [00:39:27] Speaker A: You know, they, they believe that you can plant a seed that eventually, you know, develops later. [00:39:35] Speaker B: I don't think we get to choose because otherwise we would pray for the elect. Let's see, who. Who is it that has a star on their forehead that I can talk to? Right. [00:39:44] Speaker A: So I don't know. You know, I'm, I mean, I'm not. [00:39:47] Speaker B: Attacking, I'm not trying to either. [00:39:49] Speaker A: This is not trying to attack a belief. I just. When you start getting into the isms. Right. [00:39:54] Speaker C: Yes. [00:39:54] Speaker A: You guys know where I'm at on this. I don't like any of the isms or things like that. I'm, you know, you see both sides of this. The Calvinism versus Armenianism. And I think that both have their own strong points, and I think both are critically flawed because humanity is critically flawed. You know what I mean? And so that's why I just don't put my faith in. In a person. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Yes, fallible. [00:40:32] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:40:33] Speaker C: You know. You know, I actually, it's interesting because I was having a discussion with someone not too long ago, probably a few months ago, about Calvinism and stuff, and it was a couple of verses actually came up, one of which, John 3:16. Right. For God so loved the world, the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever that believeth in him will not perish, but have everlasting life. [00:40:57] Speaker A: Now this was KJV there. [00:41:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:02] Speaker C: The Shrek in me comes out. [00:41:04] Speaker B: Only the chosen. Only the chosen. [00:41:06] Speaker C: You know, the interesting thing is they they took this and it was like, let me find it here. I actually kind of wrote it down that they think that the way that they read it is that Jesus didn't die for every single individual, but the all men simply meant all of the elect. [00:41:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm like, except for. [00:41:32] Speaker B: Wow. [00:41:33] Speaker A: What about First John 2. 2 where it says he's the propitiation for our sins and not only for. For ours, but also for the sins of the whole world. [00:41:43] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:41:44] Speaker A: The whole. I mean, you can't get around that. [00:41:47] Speaker C: Or First Timothy two. Four. Right. They. They'll say something like, well, let me go ahead and read that. It says, I urge you then first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, thanksgiving be made for all people. All people. For the kings of all those in authority that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good. And pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. [00:42:18] Speaker A: Right. [00:42:18] Speaker C: There is one God, one mediator between God and mankind. The man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all people. [00:42:26] Speaker A: Now, that's right. There's two pieces in that scripture. So number one, you're talking about all people. Number two, you have to acknowledge also that it says that it is God's will that all be saved. [00:42:40] Speaker B: Sure, absolutely. [00:42:41] Speaker A: So. So that when we're talking about God's will, I believe in to. Again, I'm gonna lay this foundation. I believe 100% in the sovereignty of God. He is sovereign king, period, period. Within his sovereignty, though you see scriptures like this where he has a perfect will and a permissive will. Right. So there is the. His perfect will is that every person who's ever existed would come to have relationship with him. But his permissive will seems to be based off of some of these passages that, you know, he allows in his sovereignty us an opportunity to reject him, which makes loving him that much more. That much. [00:43:36] Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. [00:43:40] Speaker A: So, yeah, I think we're. I think we're all pretty. [00:43:43] Speaker B: I don't know how to debate that. I mean, I. [00:43:46] Speaker A: To me, that one's cut and dry. [00:43:47] Speaker B: If. [00:43:48] Speaker A: But you know, if you love your. [00:43:50] Speaker B: Wife, your spouse, to me, you do stuff for them, Right? Absolutely right. Buying flowers, whatever. You show your love. And I think that's how. When you don't. [00:44:00] Speaker A: Don't talk about buying flowers. And I'm going to be in trouble. [00:44:03] Speaker B: Now you bring her a bottle of air, some water. But, you know, you do stuff. You do stuff for them. Right. And that's the relationship you have with God. Right. Because it's faith and works and works and faith. Right. You can't. You can't get salvation through work works and you. And if you have faith, you have to have works. [00:44:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:21] Speaker B: To me, that's the relationship part of it right there. Exactly. If. If you love him, you're going to do stuff for him, you want to be with him, what does he want to. [00:44:29] Speaker A: And it becomes a desire. I mean. Yeah, that's how we're wired. I look every time I. We go back to the war between flesh and spirit. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Right. [00:44:39] Speaker A: My flesh desperately wants to violate the law of God, but my spirit desperately wants to just love God and keep his commandments. Because I love him, not because I feel condemned. [00:44:54] Speaker C: Right. [00:44:54] Speaker A: You know, if it. I. It's not. When I do sin, I don't feel condemned. I feel reprimanded by the Holy Spirit often. You know what I mean? But I want to do. My spirit wants to do what pleases God, which is to keep his commandments. And so, yeah, man, what could be. [00:45:17] Speaker B: Better than being in his presence? That's, you know. [00:45:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:20] Speaker C: I just think about Paul, man, when he was saying in Philippians, you know, I think it's in two or three when he's talking about that, you know, that all my successes, all that I've gained is like garbage. I mean, who can say that without being so radically in love with Jesus? That's not normal. That's not human behavior. Right. And that actually is the fruit of having an encounter with Christ. And it's like everything else is garbage. And he's like, I just. Everything else is garbage. And he says, I just want to know him so that I can even participate in his suffering. That's love, man. I mean, that's when you get to the point where nothing else means anything. [00:46:03] Speaker A: Absolutely. And without having that relationship with God, I don't think you can. No, put. Put an understanding to it. Because, look, every one, every. All of us on this call have earthly things that we've been a part of and, And God's given us ministries and those things. You know, for Phil and I, it's music. And for you, it's. It's whatever it is that you do. [00:46:26] Speaker B: He breaks stuff. Yeah. [00:46:27] Speaker A: You know, throw temper tantrums and you break baseball bats, you know. No, but I mean, so. So the earth, you know, the fleshly part of me wants to be the best musician I can possibly be. Wants to write the best song I can possibly write. You know, Phil, I'm sure you probably experienced that as well. Joe, I'm sure that you want to be the biggest, baddest, strongest dude out there, but. But every time I've ever accomplished my. My greatest in music, it's never fulfilled me in the same way or even close to the same way as just simply being loved by God, you know? [00:47:08] Speaker C: And now there was an encounter one time. I remember, just a quick story just reminded me that I was doing a program breaking stuff down in Virginia many years ago. And, dude, I. Man, it was outside. It was kind of on this basketball court outside and had all these bricks stacked up. Everything was lit on fire. It was just beautiful, man. I jumped in the middle of it. Nothing breaks. I hit the bricks, literally, the parts that were on fire. My arm catches on fire. They're spraying me off, and I have video somewhere where I'm trying to break a double stack of bricks, and I fall off the podium, and nothing happens. Like, nothing breaks except maybe one or two things. Took me 10 minutes to get through a flipping baseball bat. I finally get to the bat. I present the gospel. 40 kids get saved. They come forward. I get in my van that I had not by the river, but, you know, I put it all. I just grab all of my stuff, I throw it in the van, and I punch the seat, and I'm like, never will that happen again. And, man, the Holy Spirit got a hold of my heart right there. [00:48:18] Speaker B: Yep. [00:48:19] Speaker A: Said, it's not about you moment, man. [00:48:23] Speaker C: It was like I felt so dirty and selfish, and I. I said, God, I don't never want to lose sight of why I'm doing this. It's because I love you. And I. [00:48:36] Speaker B: Hey, man, my pastors reminded me of that a lot. It's not about you. That's right. And it's. That's a hard pill to swallow sometimes sit back and, you know, you got to take that one and you sit back and you go. I mean, I know people that were just. Can't really sing, but they're anointed. And you go, how can that possibly be? Well, right. It's the anointing that breaks all the yolks and the bonds. And it's. It's not. It's not our talent, although we are called to play skillfully. [00:49:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, if you're stewards with the gifts, but if you're. [00:49:10] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. You guys, you want to be true to it, but the anointing, you can never flip the talent for the anointing. You can never mix one for two. One is the anointing. Period two is the skill. And if you put the skill in front of the anointing, which we've all done. [00:49:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:27] Speaker B: You will mess that up. [00:49:28] Speaker A: You come up empty every time. Yeah. The only way to. The only way to really find fulfillment is truly with Christ alone and that relationship and the Holy Spirit working in the ends. It's amazing. So. [00:49:42] Speaker C: So what was the question again? [00:49:45] Speaker B: What are we talking about? [00:49:47] Speaker A: You are. If you don't know us, you will find out very quickly that we chase rabbits wherever they decide to go. [00:49:54] Speaker C: But the rabbits lead to carrots, right? [00:49:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. I don't like carrots, but I like cookies. [00:50:00] Speaker B: Really? [00:50:01] Speaker A: Maybe the rabbits lead to cookies. No. So, you know, we're talking about does. Well, basically, the next question, I think where we. I know where we kind of land on this too, based on our discussion, but I'll ask it again. Or anyway, you know, does. Does having a choice, if God, if, if. If we're right and we have a piece of this process that we're responsible for and we have a choice to accept Christ or deny Christ, does that impact the sovereignty of God? [00:50:45] Speaker B: No, absolutely not. Otherwise he wouldn't be sovereign. [00:50:49] Speaker A: He's God. You know what I mean? I mean, it is what it is. [00:50:53] Speaker B: And you don't have to like it. You really don't. You don't have to like it. That's the choice. [00:50:57] Speaker A: No, but I think like we talked about earlier, the idea that he's sovereign and in his sovereignty can allow for us to. [00:51:07] Speaker B: Just like you would with a child. I mean, I think, you know, being a parent sometimes does. Gives me a little perspective. Right? Kids not doing what I want to do. But you know what? I still love them. [00:51:17] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. I mean, I see in scripture we talked about, you know, Moses and Pharaoh and Pharaoh's heart being hardened by God, you know, and God superseding the will of man. And you, you see Pharaoh making his own choice at the same time. And. Yeah, he did not coexist. [00:51:39] Speaker B: He gave up. [00:51:40] Speaker A: I mean, both coexist together. He didn't do it. [00:51:42] Speaker B: No. There was no way he was going to ever bow. [00:51:46] Speaker A: Yep. So he was used to being the. [00:51:49] Speaker B: God of the country. [00:51:51] Speaker A: Right. You see, in Joshua 24, you know, as for me, in my house, we will serve the Lord and choose this day whom you will serve. You know, even in the Psalms, right, I have Psalm 119, verse 30, I have chosen the way of faithfulness. I set your rules before me. You know, there's a. There's a command and there's a responsibility that we have to choose. I believe in God's sovereignty. He gives us a command and a responsibility to choose Him. And to me, both coexist beautifully together. You know, there's a lot of famous theologians that are on both sides of this argument, but I. I do not like being an ism man, and I respect a lot of these guys. I mean, look, Charles Spurgeon, right? I mean, beautiful ministry. Or RC Sproul, DL Moody. DL Moody was kind of in both camps. I think he was probably closer to, like us. You have. The other side's got, like, A.W. tozer and Billy Graham, C.S. lewis. All these guys had great ministries, you know, but they. They disagreed on these things. But that further reinforces our point that the. This understanding the mechanics of salvation is not a salvation issue for us. [00:53:14] Speaker B: Right, right, right. [00:53:16] Speaker A: It's. That is not going to be the thing that God's like. Man, you. You knew who I was. We had a great relationship. But you. You missed on how I did this. You know, I. I think that would cheapen the gospel. So, you know, look, wrapping this up, right? We're already at 53 minutes. I know it's crazy. It's crazy. And I like keeping these shorter than some of the other podcasts out there. But I think we can agree. I would like to say I think we agree. I don't want to speak for you. [00:53:51] Speaker B: Don't force it on me, but the. [00:53:52] Speaker A: Mechanics of salvation really belong to God, not belong to us. [00:53:56] Speaker C: Absolutely. [00:53:59] Speaker A: You know, and it's okay that we don't know what percentage is us and what percentage is God. I think that we have to get comfortable as believers having questions that we don't know now. We might not know yet. We might eventually come to know, or maybe he's God, and we might not know on this side of heaven. And I think we have to be comfortable with a little rub is okay. That doesn't make the scriptures not true. Right. It doesn't mean that God is not who he says he is. It means that He's God and he's higher than us. So I think we got to get. We got to get more comfortable with letting it rub weird and just being okay with that, you know? And ultimately, here's the main thing, right? Is so we're all sinners, right? Every single one of us. We're born into sin. We're born under the jurisdiction of sin. We'll talk about that coming up here. [00:55:12] Speaker B: Ephesians, we really are stained by it right now. [00:55:15] Speaker A: We are nature. We Have a sinful nature. [00:55:20] Speaker B: Yep. [00:55:20] Speaker A: If everyone is honest with ourselves, we, not one of us has ever gone without making a mistake that violates God's law. And the wages of sin is death. [00:55:34] Speaker C: Yeah. And it was while we were still yet sinners, Christ died. [00:55:37] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. Because the wages of sin is death. But while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. That's the good news. [00:55:45] Speaker C: So that we can become the righteousness of God. I mean, think about that. That's a whole nother topic. [00:55:52] Speaker A: Well, we're going to get there. Yeah, we're going to get into that. Because righteousness happens to be in Ephesians. [00:55:58] Speaker C: I know. That's exciting stuff, man. [00:56:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Spoiler alert. [00:56:02] Speaker B: Spoiler alert. God wins. [00:56:05] Speaker A: Yeah. So we're all sinners. The wages of sin is death, and that death is an eternal death. But Christ paid the debt of sin on the cross and it was paid in full and complete. And he conquered death and he conquered sin in his resurrection. And that resurrection was the. Was for us. And if we all we have to do, the Bible says all we have to do is believe and confess that Christ is Lord. Right. Submitting to the lordship of Christ. [00:56:41] Speaker B: That's right. [00:56:42] Speaker A: Having the faith that believes in the lordship of Christ. And what's the promise? If we believe and confess, we will be saved. [00:56:52] Speaker C: This brings us back to just going Back to Romans 10, baby. If you declare with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved with the heart that you believe in, are justified, and it's with the mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. I love this. As scripture says, anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame. For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. The same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call upon Him. For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Now here's the core, brothers. This is where we're at when we preach the gospel right here. How then can they call up on the one they haven't believed in? How can they believe in the one they haven't heard? How can they hear about someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news. That's the core of what this whole thing is about, man. [00:57:50] Speaker A: That's right. [00:57:51] Speaker C: All about the gospel. It's about putting our faith, hope and trust in him and just. [00:57:55] Speaker A: That's it going out, man. It's faith and submitting to lordship and confessing Christ. That's it. [00:58:01] Speaker B: It can't please him. Without faith, you. [00:58:04] Speaker A: You're not going to work your way into heaven. [00:58:06] Speaker B: Nope. [00:58:07] Speaker A: There's nothing that you can do or say that's going to convince God that you're, you know, good enough. There's a standard. We fall short of it. Christ fulfilled it and we get a free, free ride. [00:58:19] Speaker B: Yep. [00:58:20] Speaker A: We get to, we get to just. And by graceful. [00:58:23] Speaker C: You're saved, right? [00:58:24] Speaker A: That's right. Salvation by grace through faith, plus nothing, minus nothing. The finished work of the cross, period. Amen. [00:58:33] Speaker C: Amen. Should boast. Amen. [00:58:34] Speaker A: If you, if you are watching or listening, wherever you're at and God's tugging on your heart and you feel like you don't have a relationship with Christ, but you want to have a relationship with Christ, we would love for you to reach out to us. There's a couple ways you could do that. You could reach out to us through our email, which is info at TheGatheringHouse Church. Or you could just come to church. And we just, we want to invite anybody to come to church. [00:59:03] Speaker B: Hopefully. [00:59:03] Speaker A: If you're listening to this is because you come to our church and you're looking for us to go a little deeper on Sunday's topic. But also if you're just finding us through some other way, that's great too. And if you're in the Royal Oak, Michigan area, we don't want to take you away from your church. If you are already plugged in somewhere, stay there. But if you are looking for a home church, this is what you get on Sundays. So you get what you pay for. You can come. We, you know, we are a ministry of the Gathering House Church in Royal Oak. If you are looking for service information, you can go on our website, which is www.thegatheringhouse.church. and if you are looking for more podcast stuff, obviously wherever you're listening or watching, it should be posted on there as well. But you can also, if you go onto our website, TheGatheringHouse Church, there is a podcast tab that you can access as well that'll have access to more episodes. [01:00:11] Speaker B: It'll have one right now. [01:00:13] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. This is el numero uno for our Spanish speaking people. Yes. That's about all I got. We did it. We made it through our first episode. [01:00:25] Speaker B: Wow. Okay. [01:00:29] Speaker A: No, great topic. And I, and I love that it wasn't super clean. This is real. This is real life. It doesn't, it's not polished, but God's good So thank you for if you've made it this far into. If you made it an hour and 37 seconds into it, or whatever it's been. Thank you so much for sticking around with us. You can join us in our next episode where we are going to continue through the book of Ephesians. We're going to go all the way through it. I'm excited about it. So Lord willing, we will see you next time. Take care.